Wednesday, January 07, 2009

To Jason Cherniak On Your Recent Pro-Israel Email

To Ezra Levant readers I am not anti-Israel and I am calling for Ezra Levant to remove his link claiming I am. I have sent him a communication asking for such a removal and have posted a similar message.

-------------------------------------------------------

*Update* I have been notified from a retired Liblogger that he received the same email from Jason Cherniak. This ex-blogger hasn't posted anything in a year and was removed from Liblogs months ago and wonders too how Jason Cherniak obtained his email address if it is not Liblogs policy to use members emails in such a manner, especially considering he has not been a member for some time.

If Jason Cherniak used the Liblogs email directory to send out his own biased opinion he did so contrary to existing Liblogs policy.

Below is correspondence between myself and Jason Cherniak revolving around an email I received from him which was solely Pro-Israel.

------------------------------------------

Hello

When I signed up to Liblogs there was no explicit or implicit notification that my email address would be used to receive someone else's personal opinion. I believe this email that was sent to me is bordering on a form of propaganda. I would like to inquire if using someone's email without their consent to send one person's biased opinion is a policy Liblogs has adopted.

Scott

------------------------------------------

(Jason Cherniak's Response)

I am a human being and I sent that email from my private account. It has nothing to do with Liblogs, although many bloggers were included.

------------------------------------------

(My Response)

Hello

Yes I fully acknowledge you are indeed a person, but I inquired if it was a new policy of Liblogs to take my email address to send me unsolicited emails that have nothing to do with the blog listing itself. I should also mention since you have used this email to send out emails concerning Liblogs directly, the idea that it is strictly your personal email address is at the very least questionable.

Scott

-----------------------------------------

(Jason Cherniak's Response)

This is very much my personal email. The Liblogs email is admin(at)liblogs.ca. I also sign Liblogs emails with a Liblogs signature.

You’re entitled to your opinions. I think, though, that it is a bit silly to get upset by one email.

-----------------------------------------

(My Response)

Hello,

So I can understand your position, you are suggesting you have never sent out blanket emails from that "personal" account that dispersed information regarding Liblogs to its' members?

Also would you please answer my initial question, is it now a policy of Liblogs to use its members emails to send out unsolicited emails that do not relate to the blog listing?

Scott

------------------------------------------

(Jason Cherniak's Response)

I'm not saying that, because I know there have been times when I was unable to use the Liblogs email. I'm saying that if I have done it before, it does not change the fact that it is my private email.

I am pretty sure that I am always clear in the introduction and signature when something is from the company, but you may find an exception that proves the rule. I won't discount the possibility that I have erred in the past and apologize if I did.

As for your second question, that is not the policy.

------------------------------------------

Jason maintains that it was his private email address, however when one sends numerous emails from said email address that concern Liblogs business and its members repeatedly that email address whether he likes it or not becomes an email address that represents and is associated with Liblogs.

I only sought the answer to one question. It took three replies for Jason Cherniak to respond that sending out his own unsolicited opinion was not a policy of Liblogs. And in the process I was misconstrued as upset and my inquiry of just asking a question was deemed "silly."

42 comments:

Jason Cherniak said...

I am a human being and I sent that email from my private account. It has nothing to do with Liblogs, although many bloggers were included.

pogge said...

...using someone's email without their consent to send one person's biased opinion...

I believe the technical term for that is spam.

A BCer in Toronto said...

Is your email address not displayed to the public in the top left corner of your blog?

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

A BCer: It is, but Jason Cherniak did not obtain my email through that means. He obtained my email through the Liblog registry and has sent out the blanket email to a designated group folder within his email account.

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

BCer: He continues to evade answering if this is a policy Liblogs has adopted.

A BCer in Toronto said...

So the e-mail wasn't sent to the address on your blog header then, but to a different one?

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

BCer: No, he sent it to the one in the header, and it is for public display. However as I stated explicitly, Jason Cherniak did not obtain my email address through that means. He obtained my email address through the Liblogs registry and used that information to send me unsolicited emails. Much as he has done with others.

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

BCer: And as I'll repeat, he has not answered my question for the third time.

Antonio said...

sounds like youre picking a fight for no reason

If you dont like what Cherniak says (and I cant possibly imagine anybody not agreeing with jason) then either ignore the email, or tag his email address as junk mail.

Liblogs isnt operated by the party, but by Jason.

If you dont like that, you can also ask to be taken off...

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Antonio: You are so conflictual. Please provide one example where I was adversarial? Does everything have to be a fight with you?

I only wanted an answer to a question.

Antonio said...

the tone of your response to me proves my point.

Jason has his opinions. He sent them out to a list of emails he had. Big deal. He was right. You were being silly.

accusing Jason of sending out propaganda to the Liblogs sounds confrontational to me. Then again, maybe im wrong.

Jason Cherniak said...

Hillarious! You won't even print the full text of my emails.

Jason Cherniak said...

The full text my final email was:

---------------------

I'm not saying that, because I know there have been times when I was unable to use the Liblogs email. I'm saying that if I have done it before, it does not change the fact that it is my private email.

I am pretty sure that I am always clear in the introduction and signature when something is from the company, but you may find an exception that proves the rule. I won't discount the possibility that I have erred in the past and apologize if I did.

As for your second question, that is not the policy.

Jason

A BCer in Toronto said...

Scott, I believe Jason has said that sending "propaganda" messages to the Liblogs membership is not Liblogs policy when he stated he sent the e-mail privately, on his own behalf. So your question was answered. And as a member of the Liblogs board, I'll amplify that: it's not Liblogs policy.

So, that settled, I'm confused by your point about him sending it to an e-mail address you publicly post on your blog. Yes, you sent this address to him when you joined the aggregate. But you also make it publicly available, thereby seemingly inviting people to e-mail you. If it were two different addresses, you'd have something approaching a point, which is why I sought clarification.

If you don't want e-mails, perhaps you should take it down. If you just don't want e-mails from Jason, erase them and move on.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Jason, why don't you copy/paste the full text here.

I'm sure many Liberals will find your opinion not only funny but biased on the subject of Israel.

You said you had given up blogging (working behind the scenes) but have no qualms about using Liblogs to express your pro-Israel garbage.

Like I've written before, you are more of an pro-Israeli Jew than Liberal. In politics it's always interesting to see what motivates people.

And yes, I did write "Jew" as that part of your identity seems to trump any logic or coherent line of reasoning.

And as a member of the Liblogs board, I'll amplify that: it's not Liblogs policy.
and
As President of Liblogs, I speak on behalf of the organization. While I will never force bloggers to adopt my view, I feel it is my responsibility to lay out the official position of Liblogs on the fighting in Israel and Gaza
So what the fuck is it?
Now it seems that Liblogs is playing BT games...

Nice to see you guys have lost all credibility....

Jason Cherniak said...

That's a great idea. We'll see if Scott leaves it up.

Update: Gaza by the Numbers

Israel’s Humanitarian Aid to Gaza
396 truckloads of humanitarian aid that have been delivered through Israeli crossings into Gaza since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, including basic food commodities, medication, medical supplies, blood units and donations by various governments and blood units. [3]
80 truckloads of humanitarian aid expected to arrive in Gaza on Jan. 5 [4]
20 Palestinians evacuated to Israel for medical treatment (including two children) [5]
800,000+ leaflets disseminated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to Gaza civilians instructing them to stay away from terrorist and weapons storage sites [6]
70+ times the IDF warned populated areas before conducting airstrikes [7]
10,000 tons of aid transported into Gaza at the request of international organizations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead. The World Food Program informed Israel last week that that it would cease shipment of food to Gaza because warehouses are at full capacity, with enough food to last two weeks. [8]
0 wounded Palestinians allowed by Hamas to cross from Gaza into Egypt for treatment. [9]


Iran-backed Hamas Rocket, Mortar Attacks and Nuclear Developments

10,000+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2001. [10]
3,200+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza in 2008 alone. [11]
6,500+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. [12]
538+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israeli territory during the ceasefire from June 19 to Dec. 19, 2008. [13]
480 rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel since Operation Cast Lead began Dec. 27. [14]
28 deaths caused by rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel since 2001. The dead include Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. Since the ceasefire ended, Iran-backed Palestinian groups in Gaza fired rockets and mortars that killed an Israeli-Arab construction worker and a mother of four who was seeking shelter in a bus station as a rocket warning siren sounded. [15]
1,000+ people in Israel injured from rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2001, including Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. Since the start of Israel’s defensive operation in Gaza Dec. 27, 90 Israelis have been injured and at least 244 have been treated for shock. [16]
20,000 Hamas terrorists Israel is targeting as part of its defensive operations [17]
1,000,000 Israeli civilians Hamas is targeting and can reach. [18]
15 seconds Israelis have to get to a bomb shelter once a warning siren has sounded. [19]
8 years Israel has endured rockets and mortar fire from Gaza [20]
3 mosques in Gaza used as weapons, ammunitions and explosives depots that were struck by the Israel Defense Forces during the operation in Gaza. [21] The strikes occurred only at night and never during prayer times, to avoid civilian casualties.
4 UN Security Council resolutions passed since 2006 to try to stop Iran from enriching uranium. [22]
5,000+ number of centrifuges operating in Iran to enrich uranium, the material used to produce a nuclear weapon. [23]

What Israel Gave Up in Hopes of Peace - Gaza Withdrawal Aug. 2005

100% proportion of the Gaza Strip evacuated and handed over to the
Palestinians. [24]
300 square miles of the West Bank evacuated. [25]
21 Israeli settlements uprooted in the Gaza Strip. [26]
4 Israeli settlements uprooted in the West Bank. [27]
48 graves uprooted in Gaza’s former Gush Katif Cemetery, including six graves of area residents murdered by terrorists. [28]
9,000 approximate number of Israelis, including 1,700 families, who lived in Gaza and the northern West Bank. All of them were moved out as part of the withdrawal. [29]
38 synagogues dismantled in the Gaza Strip. [30]
5,000 school-age children who had to find new schools. [31]
42 daycare centers that were closed in the Gaza Strip. [32]
36 kindergartens that were closed in the Gaza Strip. [33]
7 elementary schools that were closed in the Gaza Strip. [34]
3 high schools that were closed in the Gaza Strip. [35]
320 mobile homes, ordered by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, to serve as temporary housing for settlers. [36]
45,000 Israeli soldiers and policemen who participated in the Gaza withdrawal. [37]
$1.7 billion the approximate cost to the Israeli government for the withdrawal initiative. [38]
166 Israeli farmers who were moved out of Gaza. [39]
800 cows, which comprised the second largest dairy farm in Israel, moved out of Gaza’s Gush Katif community. [40]
$120 million value of flowers and produce exported annually from Gush Katif and lost following the evacuation. [41]
1 zoo, the “Katifari,” that housed hundreds of animals and was moved. [42]
10,000 people who were employed in agriculture and related industries in Gush Katif, including 5,000 Palestinians. [43]
60% proportion of Israel's cherry tomato exports that came from the Gaza Strip. Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza extinguished this economic resource. [44]
3.5 million square meters (almost 1,000 acres) of greenhouses abandoned in Gaza. [45]
70 percentage of Israel's organic produce grown in Gaza – another economic resource lost in the evacuation. [46]
60 percentage of herbs exported from Israel that came from Gush Katif. [47]
15 percentage of Israel agricultural exports that originated in Gaza – exports lost following Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza. [48]
$360,000 expected average compensation amount Israel expected to pay to relocate each family. [49]
$870 million approximate cost for Israel to facilitate the resettlement of former West Bank and Gaza residents elsewhere in the country. [50]
$500 million amount of money Israel's security establishment spent to relocate Israel Defense Forces bases outside the Gaza Strip and build new border crossing facilities. [51]
After Israel’s evacuation from Gaza…

430,000 West Bank Palestinians able to move freely within and between Palestinian-controlled areas. [52]
1 Israeli remaining in Gaza. Staff Sgt. Gilad Shalit was abducted from Israel on June 25, 2006 by Hamas in a bloody cross-border raid in which the terrorists also killed two IDF soldiers and wounded four others. [53]
1.2 million Arabs who remained full and legal citizens of Israel. All Israeli citizens – Christians, Muslims, and Jews – have freedom of speech, religion, press, and the right to vote. [54]
1.3 million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip many of them in Palestinian Authority-controlled refugee camps, who live under their own leaders. [55]
820,000 Jewish refugees forced to flee without their belongings from Arab countries between 1947 and 1949, and who have never been compensated by Arab governments for their losses. [58]
650,000 Arab refugees who left Israel from 1947-1949 and still need Palestinian leaders who will end terrorism and the culture of hate. [57]

Israel’s withdrawal from four northern West Bank settlements created an area more than twice the size of Gaza’s 140 square miles under Palestinian control and devoid of any Israeli presence. [58]

Antonio said...

yea jason

Israel also didnt allow civlians to get out once the bombing started.

They also didnt let the media in to independently verify their claims that "i think something came from over there, lets blow up an entire school"

RuralSandi said...

Mr. Ross - you don't have a "delete" on your email?

Petty, petty, petty. Besides, if you don't want emails don't show your email address - by doing so you are in essence giving permission.

Seems you want to fight for the sake of fighting - waste of time and energy.

Is there anything you're happy about? Sad.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Jason, you copy/pasted a piece of Israeli propaganda as your email? WTF?

That "puff" piece is all over the internet...

It's insulting, it's demeaning and it's infuriating.
I won't even bother "frisking" it but really, why don't you just state "I'm pro-Zionist no matter what".

At. least Mr. Curran is trying to be objective (and he got savaged for it)...

The Doctor said...

Antonio:
2 points

Israel has allowed hundreds of foreign nationals to leave Gaza in the past 2 weeks (Canada waited until ground forces moved in to make their request to Israel). Israel is now working with Canada to evacuate the 19 canadians that want to leave.

Media.
Canada does not allow media (unless imbeded with our forces) to be present during military operations in Afganhistan. Why is there a difference? Having the media in a war zone creates additional hazards. As well, there are plenty of images coming through from Arab media sources already in Gaza. Note that Israel is not jamming those transmissions.

The Doctor said...

Antonio:

Media is not allowed with canadian troops troops in Afghanistan (unless imbeded. Media is a hazard in a war zone. Besides plenty of images and footage available from Arab media and Israel does not jam their transmission from Gaza, even though they are able to.

Secondly, you are wrong about civilians leaving Gaza. Hundreds have over the past two weeks. Canada waited to evacuate the 19 Canadians that want to leave to the moment that Israel began its ground operations. Tories prove their incompetance again!
Canada and Israel are working to get the 19 out, safely.

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Antonio: Please tell me where I said Jason sent out propaganda? Because I never did. Why must you always misquote me to serve your argument?

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Jason: You find it hilarious that I didn't post your email without your consent?

I didn't post your email because it was an email between me and you. I posted your first email because you had pasted the exact same message in my comments section.

But since you appear okay with me posting your emails I will.

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

BCer: We've established that the email he used was not his private email address as he has admitted he has used it repeatedly for dispersing Liblogs information and communications.

Now I don't understand what's so hard to grasp in regards to my email address being public. I can have a publicly displayed email address but it is still wrong for someone to break into a confidential directory to retrieve that email address. I am not suggesting Jason Cherniak did, but if it is not Liblogs policy, then why did he take my email address from said directory?

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

RuralSandi: I have a delete button, but is that your answer when you get Spam? Do you not try to stop it from appearing in your email box?

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Jason Cherniak: I would just like to wonder how you view people. I only asked you a question and you claim I was "upset" and my inquiry was "silly." Then imply I would remove your comment about Israel.

I just don't understand you. I don't think you're silly or upset or hilarious. I just don't understand you.

Jason Cherniak said...

Scott, you're being obtuse.

1) I said I might have used the email for Liblogs business and that if I did it was in error. I didn't want to make a blanket denial because I know that sometimes I make mistakes. You're taking far too much from that minor admittal.

2)I didn't refuse to answer your question. I answered what I thought was the key point and believed that by saying it wasn't a Liblogs email, the answer to your second question was obvious. It was not until you're third email that you made it clear that you did not understand what I was saying.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to be reasonable. That means not accusing people of doing things that they have not done.

Northern PoV said...

Jason:
I object to the ugly sticky you posted at the top of Liblogs.

State your (or Iggy's) opinion then let it get pushed down and away like all others. Your opinion should not take precedence over others.

Cherniak_WTF said...

N_POV, well said...

I just don't understand you. I don't think you're silly or upset or hilarious. I just don't understand you.
I think that he's lying and trying to eat his cake and eat it also... What I hate is that he's dishonest.

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Jason Cherniak: I am not accusing you of things you have not done. I am accusing you of things you have done.

I have received liblogs emails in the past from that very email address and you admit yourself there were times when the admin email was inaccessible.

But you still maintained even if you did use the email in question it is your private email address, and I suggest once you use it for Liblogs business it is undeniably linked to Liblogs and cannot be separated merely by you saying after the fact.

And you can call me anything you want.

Antonio said...

"I believe this email that was sent to me is bordering on a form of propaganda."

sounds like accusing jason of sending out propaganda to me...

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Really Antonio? "Bordering on Propaganda" = Propaganda? That is just wrong, logically and in any application of common sense.

Antonio said...

youre splitting hairs scott

and watching you backtrack is even funnier.

Next time, delete the email.

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Antonio: If splitting hairs means the difference between telling the truth and lying then I think you should give it more attention. "Bordering on proaganda" necessarily does not mean it is propaganda. For you to suggest it is, is a lie.

I have not backtracked, but with as shown above here is another example of Antonio ignoring the truth.

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Antonio: And Jason broke Liblogs policy to send out his own biased opinion. I think this is wrong.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Jason has/is blurring the line between his personal opinion and Liblogs -
Just seems this time that some that are opposed to his pro-Isreali propaganda are standing that he's disingenuous..

Antonio said...

since you like split hairs and go on technicalities, I decided to play your game...

for shits and giggles, I went and got the definition of propaganda for you.

from the webster dictionary

"propaganda: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause ; also : a public action having such an effect"

since you clearly indicated the email was biased (im going on a limb here and saying the email was pro-israel)

saying he sent you an email furthering his interests is fact not bordering on some form of propaganda, but indeed IS propaganda.

Sending out biased mass emails furthering a cause is indeed sending out propaganda.

Not that I think Jason did that (nor would I be surprised) but saying the email he sent was biased is indeed saying he was propagating his views, which he is entitled to do from a personal email regardless.

thescottross.blogspot.com said...

Antonio: Biased material does not equal propaganda. Propaganda has severe negative connotations, those very same connotations you want to attribute me as saying, but I did not. You can infer whatever you like, but I did not say he sent out propaganda. For you to do so is a blatant lie.

You can reach and extrapolate definitions all you want, but bias does not equal propaganda and it never will.

Cherniak_WTF said...

which he is entitled to do from a personal email regardless.
Antonio

As President of Liblogs, I speak on behalf of the organization....I feel it is my responsibility to lay out the official position of Liblogs on the fighting in Israel and Gaza.
Jason Cherniak in Liblogs....

What's even funnier is that Jason had no clue from where the puff piece came until recently...
He just blindly forwarded some piece to many on the Liblogs...

RuralSandi said...

This is getting extremely silly to say to least.

....sigh.....

jim bender said...

Completely silly...let's all get over it and move forward. There's bigger fish to fry...like Harper and that thing he calls a finance minister.

Brian from Toronto said...

Jason,
Good posting.
Scott, thanks for putting it up.
- Brian from Toronto